Talk:Fighter 8/ weapon master 19/ rogue 13
Creator's note This character build is my first Wikia edit. If I made any errors, please let me know. I tried to be as concise as possible. --Iofhua 23:37, June 18, 2014 (UTC) * If you like making builds, you can also join the Epic Character Builders' guild. WhiZard (talk) 00:01, June 20, 2014 (UTC) * You could try to match the format of the other build articles. That format is not perfect, but it does avoid cryptic abbreviations. As for the build itself, there are some things I noticed. :# You mentioned taking rogue 13 at character level 39, but didn't explain why you couldn't take it earlier. (I'd also question the significance of the note since the build already has rogue 13 at character 39. Is the implication supposed to be that the rest of the build can be changed at will, as long as rogue 13 is not moved?) :# Why take tumble to 42? There is no benefit past 40. :# Mentioning skills modified by abilities is good, but you did that for only one skill. Moreover, you did it for the only skill in your list that gets no effective benefit from the ability modifier. :# The note about disable traps and uncanny dodge is not correct. There are 11 standard types of traps in the game; almost half of them cannot be avoided with a reflex save. While technically, that leaves "most" (barely) that can be, it is misleading. Furthermore, the reason the traps can be avoided is not uncanny dodge (a mere +2 to the save), but (improved) evasion. :# Why a +2 weapon? Who uses that as a standard at level 40? :# Use magic device to use a scroll of invisibility? Rather than a potion, which anyone can use? While UMD is a nice skill, I don't think this is a particularly good example of why. :# Regarding: "It is also possible to get sneak attacks with attacks of opportunity": attacks of opportunity are not guaranteed to be sneak attacks. Much more reliable is to get your target to attack someone else. Or disable them in some way. Stealth is a useful way to get in a sneak attack, but it tends to not give more than one flurry's worth. : The epic character builders' guild could probably give you more advice (and be more supportive than me). They could probably also discuss the pros and cons (mostly cons) of your decision to dual-wield medium-sized weapons. --The Krit (talk) 02:47, June 20, 2014 (UTC) :* Thank you for the feedback. I thought laying the level progression out this way would make it easier to read. I will edit it tomorrow to try to more closely mimic what the other builds look like. To answer your questions: ::# If you take the 13th Rogue level at level 40 you can't get Epic Dodge because there is no general feat at level 40. Character level 39 is ideal because it also lets you get 40 points in tumble, which isn't possible at character level 36, which would only let you get 39 points in tumble, missing out on 1 AC. ::# I didn't know that. I will correct this when I edit it again. ::# Again, I didn't know that tumble had no benefit from the dexterity modifier. ::# I will note that in the build. ::# I would have preferred to use mundane rapiers to get the baseline attack bonus, but I was testing in Hordes of the Underdark and +2 rapiers were the poorest rapiers I could find. I was more interested in establishing the baseline stats than I was in tricking it out and posting inflated stats provided by gear. ::# Personal preference, I guess. I like collecting scrolls to use with UMD. It also lets you equip robes which only Monks and Wizards would normally use, which is probably more useful to the build. I will note that in my edit. ::# I get lots of sneak attacks on NPC's casting spells, without needing to stealth at all. I guess I could just remove that note, if you want. :: If there is anything else you would like to see changed, let me know. I don't have the time today, but I would be happy to work on it some more tomorrow. Thanks again. Iofhua (talk) 15:32, June 20, 2014 (UTC) ::* Some replies: ::: 1. You've still left open levels 37 and 38. ::: 3. Well, technically tumble does benefit from the dexterity modifier. However, the DC for a tumble check is 15, so with 40+ ranks, you'll pass it every time, even with the maximum armor check penalty. (Of course, few people remember that tumble has a skill check, thinking its only use is for the AC bonus...) ::: 5. Try the original campaign prelude. Easy access to weapons, and you can whack the target dummies all day. ;) ::: --The Krit (talk) 04:00, June 21, 2014 (UTC) * I second all the recommendations submitted thus far, especially the feedback about documenting skill allocation (Thanks TK for reminding me specifically how low the Tumble DC is ;) ). Unless a player wants to test a suggested build in a trainer beforehand, they will learn by their own mistakes when skill points need to be saved, potentially a real annoyance if testing it out on a server without a re-leveler available for such problems. The only major flaws I see in the build overall are: 1) choosing a weapon (besides the DWing penalty, that is) that cannot be keened by Keen Edge scrolls or an assisting arcanist party member (problem negated in an environment that provides comprehensive keen weapon availability or a custom foundry, of course) and 2) dependency on sneak attacks for damage. With a base damage from STR set at -1 (with a net of +3 with EWS) even crits will be somewhat lean. Default undead and constructs (not to mention dragons) will take a long time to dispatch. One example submitted in the bygone past using this exact class spread seems to address the typical damage problem of a DEX-focused WM with a little more foresight. Perhaps the format and accompanying discussion will be educational for you. --Iconclast (talk) 17:14, June 21, 2014 (UTC) :* Thank you for the feedback, everyone. I made a major edit today that cleaned it up and I think it looks a lot better now. I have to admit I'm a little sad to find out that I didn't come up with an original build, but I suppose that's to be expected for a game that is this old. Feel free to make any corrections if you see any more errors. Iofhua (talk) 18:46, June 21, 2014 (UTC) ::* It's near impossible to design a unique build with literally thousands already documented exploiting every possible angle there is, but that should not stop you from posting something you may feel is useful for other players. The first step SHOULD be to investigate what has been posted already (a comprehensive list still remains accessible by using the ECB Guild Search Engine, compare with your own idea and then try to improve on what you find. The builds posted within the NWN wiki is yet another source beyond what the ECB search engine may find. ::: IMO, a few pending issues about this build concept that jump out at me are: ::# Missing Hit Point Total. It's 388. Please post it. You are taking Toughness, apparently, because you are concerned that you need that much to survive. If you drop INT to 14, you'll be able to secure all the combat-related skills and more (see the next point for clarification). Then, by shifting 2 points to CON, you'll not only maintain the same HP total, but gain a Fort save to boot. ::# I believe your current INT is unnecessarily high and sacrificing combat-effectiveness. Using the suggested swap above (INT to CON) will leave you 2 points to move to STR; +1 physical damage and +1 Discipline (BTW, there is absolutlely no reason NOT to max Discipline @43, used to oppose special attack DC... a dice roll). ::# The skills that I believe are essential are Tumble 40 (52), Discipline 43 (43), Hide 42 (54), Move Silently 42 (54) (with all that DEX it seems ridiculous not to use stealth to generate sneak attacks) and cross-class Spellcraft 13 (15) (yields +3 saves vs. spells). There is still enough left for your UMD tally and 8 points to spare. Rogue skills are a secondary consideration in a power build. If you need them badly, drop some UMD. (Even at 35, you'll be able to equip items valued up to 1.4 million gold and cast all scrolls w/o failure... an example.) ::# With a HP total of 388 maintained, there is room for Blind fight, one of the most significant feats for any melee build. ::# You should mention somewhere near the top of the build (It's usually included in the PROS/CONS section but your opening description is as good a place as any.) that there is a 20% XP penalty from level 17 to 32 and again from 36 to 40. That's more than half of the entire build and significant for anyone who would like to try out your build where they play. ::: When you decide to test this build, buy some Darkness scrolls from a vendor and try them out (since you'll have more than enough UMD to cast them successfully). The effect only lasts for a few rounds, but you may be surprised at how often a DWing rogue can sneak attack in PvM combat while it's active. --Iconclast (talk) 03:47, June 22, 2014 (UTC) :::* I'm not sure how much we can enforce ECB standards on this wikia build. I think the best course of action is just to encourage the builder to join the ECB guild where he will have plenty of references and help in order to get good solid builds. And I have to agree that rapiers are probably not the best weapon when keen cannot be guaranteed. Hand axes when given keen will have approximately the same critical output as rapiers without keen (hand axe critical output also better withstands higher AC as the range is smaller), and the hand axes won't suffer the -2 AB penalty for having a medium weapon in the offhand. Of course, if you have a feat to spare you could always take weapon proficiency exotic so that you can dual-wield kukris. WhiZard (talk) 04:00, June 22, 2014 (UTC) ::::* Agreed about trying to shoehorn NWN wiki builds as an adjunct into the ECB universe may be unrealistic. Ideally, it would be nice to offer well-deliberated epic builds that could be considered extensions of the ECB ones for players who have either not accessed the guild's offerings or rely on the NWN wiki for one-stop-shopping. I haven't noticed any builds within the wiki that described anything other than epic level 40 builds (not that it couldn't in the future) so a universal knowledge base is not all that far-fetched. When it comes to evaluating a posted epic build, old habits and instincts die hard. Certainly the most important aspect of posting any build herein should be to encourage the spirit of community contributions so if any of my suggestions have staled that effort, I apologize. --Iconclast (talk) 13:43, June 22, 2014 (UTC) * I try to stay out of build discussions these days (so don't expect much from me beyond rules/technical clarifications), but I did want to mention some things. Abilities: I also noticed the rather high intelligence; I didn't mention it because I try to stay out of build discussions these days. Still, it's a good point to bring up. Weapon choice: Dual-wielding medium weapons is generally worse than dual-wielding with a light weapon off-hand. However, with this build's weapon-specific feats, dual-wielding rapiers will edge out rapier + light weapon. (If I recall correctly, though, it would not beat out dual-wielding a light weapon and changing all the weapon-specific feats to that weapon. Power-wise at least. The person I crunched the numbers for decided to stick with dual scimitars for the "style" -- something about some drow...) Skills: With all that dexterity, you might be able to use stealth to generate a good number of sneak attacks without many ranks in stealth skills. Untrained stealth skills of 12-18 allow one to hide fairly effectively from many opponents. You just gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. Know when to sneak up on 'em, know when to run. Unique build: I haven't checked the database, but I've probably come up with some unique builds fairly recently. Then again, who else is crazy enough to make a fighter/WM/CoT with a constitution of 6? :) --The Krit (talk) 07:15, June 22, 2014 (UTC) :* I made a bunch of small edits based on feedback. I changed it to dual-wield handaxes instead of rapiers. It now has a slightly higher based attack bonus, thanks to being light weapons. I changed the base stats a bit, and swapped out toughness for blind-fight. I added a couple more recommended skills and then added a note about the multi-classing XP penalty at the bottom. Thank you for your help! Iofhua (talk) 16:37, June 22, 2014 (UTC) Halfing option note added The note: Note that the same build can be made using halfling instead of elf; this would eliminate the multi-class XP penalty as rogue is a favored class for halfling. Additional benefits would be +1 AB and AC from small stature, though the halfling is easier to knockdown. is somewhat misleading. First, dual-wielding handaxe AB will suffer since it will no longer be light... more than offsetting the size benefit. Daggers could be used but are piercing and cannot be Keen-edged via scroll like handaxe. A light DW Kukri requires Exotic Prof which is beyond the scope of this build as it stands now. There are also other differences that could require adjusting starting abilities and/or feat selection. So, it wouldn't be the SAME build, but rather a SIMILAR build. --Iconclast (talk) 18:46, July 18, 2014 (UTC) * I noticed that note and was going to make a similar response, but you beat me to it. Anyway, the note is gone from the article until someone comes up with a better rationale for it. Losing the XP penalty is good, but not at the expense of AB for a warrior-type. --The Krit (talk) 01:54, July 31, 2014 (UTC) Class progression I did want to make one observation about the chosen class progression. While I don't know why the classes are grouped the way they are, it looks to me like a small change could greatly improve the playability of this build. If you move rogue 5 from character 31 to 21, you get rid of the XP penalty for 9 levels, plus you get an extra d6 on your sneak attacks throughout the 20s. It seems like a decent benefit for a small change. Then again, maybe there is a reason for taking the classes in this order? (You could further reduce the number of levels with an XP penalty by more interleaving of classes, but that would be a more significant change to the build.) I don't know; I'll leave this up to others. I just wanted to mention it. --The Krit (talk) 02:49, August 5, 2014 (UTC) * Only guessing but I suspect the builder felt getting the AB boosts from WM in ASAP was a priority over other considerations. In environments where leveling is not an issue and with most gaming done after reaching the level cap, it almost makes no difference. But I agree that posting a build that reflects the minimum penalties and related disadvantages would be preferable... and then leave it to the user to decide what matters most and do their own juggling. A character-building utility would likely have exposed issues like this instantly. It was probably compiled manually just trying to reach a final statistical goal. But who can really say, eh? --Iconclast (talk) 21:56, August 6, 2014 (UTC) Skill points For the total skill points, I calculated: # level 1 bonus: 3 * (2+2) = 12 # fighter: 8 levels * (2+2) = 32 # weapon master: 19 levels * (2+2) = 76 # rogue: 13 levels * (8+2) = 130 For a grand total of 12 + 32 + 76 + 130 = 250 skill points. The article states the build receives only 246 skill points. Am I over-counting something, or should I correct the article? (I'm not taking the time to check in a leveler at the moment.) Hmm... I do calculate 41 remaining skill points. Maybe the point total in the article was arrived at by creating the character, looking at the remaining skill points, then adding the ranks bought? With the oversight that the intimidate ranks have to be cross-class because no rogue levels are taken before weapon master? That seems plausible. I'm going to change the total in the article, but please correct it if you know what I'm forgetting. --The Krit (talk) 23:15, August 24, 2014 (UTC) Discipline Why is discipline taken to 40? Strange place to stop when every point counts and it's a class skill for the level 40 class. Why not 43? (I guess something similar applies to hide and move silently, which are stopped at 40 instead of 42.) --The Krit (talk) 23:15, August 24, 2014 (UTC)